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Amy Cavanaugh:  Welcome to Dish From Chicago Magazine. I’m Amy Cavanaugh, Chicago magazine’s dining editor.

John Kessler: And I’m John Kessler, Chicago magazine’s dining critic.

Amy: And today we’re going to dig into Chicago’s cocktail bar scene. We’re going to talk about some of our favorite spots in town for a drink. We’re going to talk about what makes a good cocktail, and we’re going to talk about what makes a good cocktail bar. We’re also going to share the best things we’ve eaten lately, which include a fancy beef skewer at one of the city’s best restaurants. 

Just a reminder, on July 16, the magazine is hosting its best restaurants event, which will feature signature bites from some of our favorite spots, including Dear Margaret, El Che Steakhouse, and Publican Quality Bread. Both John and I will be there, and we’d love to see you there too. If you’re interested in purchasing tickets, and they’re going fast, head to Chicagomag.com/cbr, that’s C as in Chicago, B as in best, and R is in restaurants.

John: Amy, since you’re the expert, tell me, what does make a good cocktail bar?

Amy: I think that a good Chicago cocktail bar — let’s start there — I think is, I think Chicago is really known for having an approachable scene. You know, we have some places that are certainly fancier, such as the Aviary and Kumiko, but I feel like the scene is really best understood through places that feel like they’re more neighborhood spots doing great drinks

John: Best Intentions kind of stuff?

Amy: Exactly, exactly like that. These are places that are serving really high quality drinks, but in much more relaxed environments. You know, I see all the time that these kinds of places say we’re not cocktail bars. We’re just a bar. And so they might have a feel of, you know, just your neighborhood corner tavern, and I think that they really kind of draw on Midwest tavern culture, you know, you mentioned Best Intentions, which really, I think, gets to that. But then also places like Sportsman’s Club, Small Bar, Quality Time. Even Pizza Lobo. I’m a big fan of, you know, swinging by there for a slice, and I love their mezcal Negroni. It feels just like, you know, a pizza tavern from the 70s, but they have a really, they put some thought into their cocktail program, and they’re doing a really great job. So I think that that’s

John: So interesting to me, because there are so many neighborhood bars and taverns in Chicago. Like, I’m just amazed that I can walk one block in any direction from where I live and just, oh, look, there’s a bar. You know?

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And Chicago is not unique in having neighborhood bars, by any means, but I think that there’s, there’s really a feel to these places that is very Chicago. You can kind of see some places like this, if you go up into Wisconsin, where I spend a lot of time, like around Madison, and places like that. But if you’re trying to think about, like, what sets Chicago’s cocktail bar scene apart, I think it’s really the sense of approachability, but that approachability is not at the expense of really great drinks. I think that I would say the majority of my favorite places are these kind of these bars like the Queen Mary in Wicker Park is a particular favorite. They have. You know, the best martini in town,

John: Right? What is it like, isn’t it made with, like, the martini has some unusual ingredient it right? Like—

Amy: The Navy-Strength Old Fashioned, which I named as the number one best cocktail in town last year. It’s gin and Navy-strength rum. So totally off the wall combo to see gin and rum in a drink together, but it’s absolutely fantastic. And every time I go to that bar, I have to have, to have one, but it’s served in a space that you know is pretty much unchanged for decades. That bar was was owned by a couple, and the husband passed away, and the wife just locked the door and it sat there for decades until it reopened in 2015 with Heisler Hospitality. And it has that feel of, you know, this really unchanged time capsule. So there’s nothing fancy about this at all, but they’re serving incredibly high quality drinks. 

John: Yeah, there are a lot of bars in Chicago that like, feel they’re right out of a David Lynch movie or something. I mean, they’re kind of like old and dark and maybe, you know, borderline creepy, but not actually creepy, just kind of moody.

Amy: This thought that these bartenders are putting into the drinks, you know, really, really comes through. But I think when we’re talking about approachability, we also need to talk about price, because even though a lot of these places really kind of have that casual feel, the cocktails might still be $16, $17 and that is pretty expensive for a drink. Probably my single favorite place right now is Gus’ Sip and Dip in River North, which is from the team behind Three Dots and a Dash. The drinks are absolutely fantastic, and they’re $12 and these are some of the highest— it’s amazing. And, you know, these are some of the highest quality drinks you can get in the city at some of the lowest prices. And, you know, I think there’s a reason that people are lining up to get in the doors when this bar opens. That’s such an important factor these days. Like, I really think that this era of the $20 cocktail is not going to continue much longer, and I really hope it doesn’t.

John: God and $25 and it’s like, you know, truffle-washed rum made by some monk on a little Caribbean island or something. I mean, it’s like these cocktails that have all these weird, savory ingredients in them, and they’re like, $25 or $30 and I feel like I should try them because they sound special. But I, I kind of, I kind of suspect a little BS in it. I’m not sure how do you feel about that. 

Amy: I feel very similarly to you. I think that, I think that cocktail tastes can be very personal. We all gravitate toward certain flavor profiles and maybe others don’t quite work as well for us. So you know, for me, I tend to avoid spicy cocktails. I tend to think that drinks that are intended to be spicy are, like, too spicy, to the point where, like, you can’t taste anything else. I love spicy food, but for me, a spicy cocktail, just like, really doesn’t work. And I think that savory is another thing that I’m really trying to be careful with because I think that a lot of the savory drinks just go too hard, and they’re throwing too many ingredients in there, and it’s just not working. That said, I was at Sepia over the weekend, and I had Keith’s World Famous Cheeseburger Martini, and he’s got a lot in there. He’s got tomato water, he’s got dill. He’s washed the the gin with beef tallow. And so, like, there’s a lot of flavors in there, but it could also work. And so—

John: Are there, like, little chunks of meat stuck on the rim, or no?

Amy: There’s, there’s a cheese cube. But I was like, You got to serve this with a little slider. You know? I love, I love any cocktail that comes with a little snack. Yeah. Big fan of a snack with my drink. At Deere Park in Highwood, the martini comes with a bowl of chips, which I greatly appreciate. In general, I look for drinks that use fewer ingredients rather than more. I think that, you know, once you’re getting above four or five, how are you achieving balance here, I think there’s just, there’s too much happening in a lot of cases. And I think a lot of places could kind of ascribe to the Coco Chanel rule and remove one accessory, and it would be a better drink.

John: Yeah, you seem to really like stirred cocktails a lot, and I do too, but sometimes they seem so strong to me, and particularly the ones that have a lot of ingredients in them just seem like they’ve got, like they’re very alcoholic. You can sort of taste like hot in your mouth. Kind of, it kind of burns a little bit, but a couple times like, and I know there was one you recommended, which I think was the Martinez at Bisous, and it felt like it had been so well stirred that all the flavors just kind of segued into each other. It wasn’t like you were tasting different things. You’re tasting one thing. And I got the impression too that there was a little bit more water had worked into it so it wasn’t quite so alcoholic. I’m just curious if you can talk a little bit about stirred cocktails.

Amy: Yes, absolutely. I mean, I gravitate toward stirred cocktails because I love cocktails that just really have these layers of flavor, that have a middle note that really just kind of ties like the high and low together. And those are the places that achieve that are my favorite places. And I think Bisous absolutely nails the stirred drink. With stirred cocktails, water— well water is an, is a key component of every single cocktail. You need ice to chill the drink. You need water to dilute it. And it’s really finding that proper dilution point is, is what really brings that drink together. I’ve certainly been served some drinks where, when you put it down in front of me, it is shockingly strong. It is, it’s just too much. And then I, like, set it aside for a couple minutes, and then I take another sip, and that additional, the ice is melted a little bit. Now the drink works perfectly together. So, you know, that’s some of it. It’s finding the bartenders with the skills to know how many, how many shakes that shaker needs, and knows how many stirs they need to stir that cocktail to ensure that like everything is perfectly in balance. You want to go to places where you’ve seen bartenders do the straw test, where they’re tasting the drink as they go along, to make sure that like everything is perfectly in sync.

John: I think the place I drink the most cocktails is not any kind of a big player on the cocktail map, but it’s The Charleston, great old bar, great moody bar in Bucktown. They spin records at night and everything. I like to go kind of early during the week. There is a bartender there named Josh who, I don’t really know him. He’s an employee there. I don’t think he has any. I mean, I don’t know his story at all, but he’s seen me come in there enough, and I would order, I like the way he made a Boulevardier. I tried one once, and I liked that, and so I’d order that. But then he said to me, you know, I think probably your drink is going to be a Black Manhattan. And I had no idea what a Black Manhattan was, but he made one for me, and it was great. Like, he figured me out as a drinker, but I like, like, he’s somebody I trust to do the stirred cocktail, because I can see that it just, it’s really well blended in a way, and it’s just kind of funny, like, I think that’s a big part of I’m going to like, the hottest, trendiest new bar where you have to either make a reservation or wait for a while to be able to get in. I don’t know if I’m ever gonna do that, unless it’s just to try it. I mean, that doesn’t seem like fun to me, but getting a neighborhood bar where there’s somebody who kind of sees who you are as a drinker, I think, is interesting, and I’m kind of curious if you have a place like that.

Amy: Yeah. I mean, I think that one of the most important things you can do if you’re a cocktail drinker is to find those bartenders whose tastes really sync up with yours, who, yes, who can have a read on you and be like, you know, I know that you like this. How about you try this? I think there’s, there’s a lot of places that I really love, but honestly, like, you know, I, I love Gus’, which I just talked about, but I think that the Bamboo Room is probably my favorite place to go for drinks in the city. That’s, that’s the little side bar at Three Dots and a Dash that you do need a reservation to go there. But, you know, I find that the team there just has such a good read on me. Scott Kitsmiller was was working there for a while, and he moved over to Gus’ when that opened. But like, I just remember going there one time, and without even ordering anything, he’s brought me a sherry Daiquiri. I’m a huge sherry drinker, giant fan of sherry. I drink it all the time, and it was just like, the perfect start. And also, just like, had such a read on my palate and what I like. And so I really find that the drinks at Three Dots and Bamboo Room and Gus’ are just like, so in line with what I’m looking for, and so in line with what I like that I go to these places and I like everything that I have, which is, you know, not the case everywhere. You know, there are some places where I’ll go and I’ll like a couple drinks, but maybe not every drink kind of nails it. And I find that Gus’, Three Dots, and Bamboo just absolutely work for me.

John: Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting because I think you mentioned Three Dots and a Dash, which I know with a lot of shaken cocktails. And I think those are, even though, like I started out talking about drinking Boulevardiers and stuff. I think I gravitate more toward, like, kind of very citrusy, sour, shaken cocktails. That’s just more my palate. And boy, you really nailed it when you told me I’d like Scofflaw, because I think that’s a great bar. I think I went there recently, got a daiquiri, and it was just, I think it was just like, you know, white rum, sugar and lime juice. I mean, it’s pretty simple, but it was so in balance to what I wanted. And I was like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. This is, this is my drink right now.

Amy: I knew that you would love Scofflaw. I think you would also love the shaken drinks at Sparrow, which is where I went last night. I went and had a Floridita, and I think at both Sparrow and Scofflaw, I think little tiki drinks can be like, just like a touch too tart for me. But you know, I love how icy and cold they are and refreshing, and the stirred drinks at those places just totally nail it for me. And so I—

John: Where’s Sparrow? 

Amy: Yeah, Sparrow is in the Gold Coast. I think you’d like the Floridita. It’s a daiquiri variation.

John: Amy, I know you’re a fan of Cara Cara Club and Nine Bar, which are two bars that are run by the same couple. Is that right?

Amy: They’re both run by Joe Briglio and Lily Wang, both who are super talented. I love Nine Bar for their use of Asian ingredients. They opened down in Chinatown a few years back. I think they’re doing very cool stuff there. And I’m also a fan of Cara Cara Club, which is like right next to Lula Cafe, and it’s more inspired by Italian drinking. So they use a lot of Amaro. I think what’s particularly novel about what they’re doing is they’re making their own like, vermouth and red bitter blends. You know, which you certainly see some bars do that. But I think they’re just doing it to, like, such a great effect. I really love a lot of the drinks there, and it’s a very breezy spot.

John: Yeah, I saw, gosh, where was it? There was some place I went recently where they did their own blend, very specific blend of different vermouths that they put in something, and it was like a terrific drink. Did I tell you about that? I think I did. Where was that?

Amy: I think it was at Daisies. 

John: Yes, that was it. 

Amy: And I think that, that is so important to me, in terms of, like, achieving, like these layers of flavor, is that, you know, bringing, not just using one vermouth, but using two, three to bring in all of these different kind of like weights and flavors and different notes. And I think that works great. Daisies I think really has an excellent bar program. And I think that’s just one of the restaurants lately that have really been killing it. I think that the restaurant bar has really seen a great resurgence in Chicago lately. I mean, Daisies is great. Sepia is one of my go-to places. Rose Mary is incredible. Elske is great. Oliver’s. Like, I go to these places just for drinks and don’t always eat when I go there, and I find that I’m seeing more and more people there doing the same thing. So the restaurant bar scene was, yeah,

John: I really want to go back to Oliver’s and just drink because I thought that the cocktails were kind of like one of the strongest parts of going there. Luke DeYoung’s work there was really, really good. I remember getting a crusta. It was just so much fun, and it was balanced, and it was, it was just kind of a pleasure to have this, you know, big, like colorful, happy drink in front of me, and

Amy: He’s a former Scofflaw guy, so that that could make sense there. 

John: Okay, so there we go. It all comes around. And then that, there’s that place, you like, Golden Years, right? It’s got that sign that looks like it’s the title card from a 70s sitcom, I think.

Amy: Yes, yeah, we went and had highballs before a dinner one time. That is my favorite Japanese highball in town. Japanese whiskey highball. It is so freezing cold, and I just love the balance of whiskey to soda. It is like the most refreshing.

John: Yeah. I when I lived in Japan, I drank a lot of high balls and also a lot of whiskey and hot water was a big thing there, which

Amy: Like a toddy?

John: Sort of, but it’s just plain hot water and whiskey. It’s called oyuwari, and it’s kind of the thing that the old men would drink. The older guys like to go to their their little snacks and clubs and things after work and drink whiskey and hot water. It’s kind of, it was kind of fun, but it was very, like, heady. You know, you got a lot of, like, alcoholic vapor into your nose as you were drinking. 

Amy: I’ll have to try that this winter. 

John: Yeah, come on over. We’ll have, we’ll have a whiskey and hot water party. It’ll be fun. Everybody. All listeners, you can come, too.

Amy: John, what’s the best thing you ate lately?

John: Loved my pasta at Daisies. Yay. It was really perfectly cooked gnocchi with morel mushrooms, maybe some truffle, you know, bucket of butter. Just delicious. Loved. How about you? 

Amy: I just had a fabulous lunch at Monteverde. I had never been for lunch before somehow. I’ve been so many times for dinner, but I went for lunch and I had the Wagyu beef skewers. Oh, my God. These were incredible, with pickled cherry peppers, some cumin, honey. It was just like the richest, most beautiful bite. Like, it’s a small skewer. You only need one. Really, really tasty. 

John: Yep, I love that. When something is so like, nice and rich and well balanced that you just think, Okay, I’m happy after this. 

Amy: Perfect, perfect little bite. 

John: You know, I always like, it’s like the almost-great food that I overeat, but it’s like the really delicious food that just makes me happy.

Amy: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Dish From Chicago Magazine. Your hosts are dining editor Amy Cavanaugh and critic John Kessler, editing by Sarah Steimer, and music by Bill Harris. You can find us online at Chicagomag.com. Please be sure to follow, rate, and review us wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll see you next time.